Posts by Cold Steel

73

Bitter apostates

by Laika in

witnesses often go on about apostates being spiteful and bitter.

when you get cut off, shunned, or threatened with shunning just for the audacity of thinking differently, it's not surprising that getting angry at the witnesses is the reaction - it's like a self fulfilling prophecy.. but also, i recently posted an email from a 'friend' on this board who told me that everyone he'd spoken to about me said i had changed, become like another person.

it didn't occur to him that the day before i told my parents i'd quit the religion just 3 weeks ago, i met him for lunch, we had a good time and he didn't know anything was up.

Cold Steel

Problemaddict: Cool steel, what you may be interested to know is I recently met a person touting the second book of mormon. He translated it in the 90's using the seer stones on loan to him from one of your Quorum of 12, and apparently has the gift.

Yes, it should be interesting to compare this guy’s translation with the one Joseph Smith produced. I heard of this guy some time ago and he’s completely rewritten his book several times. He says he used to be a security guard at the church office building in SLC.

BTW, it’s not a “second” Book of Mormon. When Joseph Smith got the plates, two-thirds of them were sealed (see Isaiah 29). They won’t be translated until the Millennium.

One of the verities of the LDS church is that only one man on Earth holds the keys of authority at a time. When Joseph received those keys, he said they had been restored for the last time. Just a few months before his death, he convened a meeting of the Quorum of the Twelve, and addressed them for three hours, during which he conferred the keys upon them. He then said, “I have sealed upon your heads all the keys of the kingdom of God. I have sealed upon you every key, power, [and] principle that the God of heaven has revealed to me. Now, no matter where I may go or what I may do, the kingdom rests upon you. But, ye apostles of the Lamb of God, my brethren, upon your shoulders this kingdom rests; now you have got to round up your shoulders and bear off the kingdom. If you do not do it you will be damned.”

One reason we have those keys, as did the apostle Peter, is because whenever something comes from the Lord, it will come through a divine chain of command. The Governing Body of the Jehovah's Witnesses believe they are that chain, but then, they never received any authority from anyone. They assumed it.

My point is that the sealed plates will come forth in due time, and when it does, it will come through that chain of command—not some canned security guard. And BTW, I’m reading the original Book of Mormon on my Android, the one with no changes made to it; and I can only occasionally tell the difference. No doctrinal changes, only grammatical corrections and, once or twice, words added for clarification. Those who claim all these changes were made and that they somehow queer the Book of Mormon, just haven’t researched it. And the original Book of Mormon version can be found at all LDS bookstores and some folks actually prefer it because it doesn’t have all those chapters and verses.

See: The Original Book of Mormon Transcript; Isaiah in the Bible and the Book of Mormon; Translation of the Book of Mormon

Since his story mimics that of Joseph Smith’s, I am sure it will be easy to join this new group and move forward with them on their quest for truth!

Yep...just don’t drink the Kool-Aid!

I will say, the Mormons believing that they have a current prophet who is in direct contact with God as the need may be, is certainly "owning" their changes. With all of the Book of Mormon revisions for example, you can just say hey......God wanted those out....he told our prophet and they confirmed with the bishops and the Quorum of 12 agreed and now we are good to go!

Nope. I don’t think the Lord was consulted. As an editor by profession, I think the revisions were called for. For example, the phrase, “...this people is grass” is completely correct in Hebrew, but bad grammar in English. So changing it to “this people are grass” isn’t something that would be appropriate to take before the Lord.

GaryNeal: All About Mormons “Dum, dum, dum, dum, dum.” Sorry, but if this is even remotely accurate, it would be tough sledding indeed to get most outsiders to believe it.

That’s okay...it’s not even remotely accurate. Most cartoons aren’t. Just as an aside, the simpleton Martin Harris (or so he was depicted in the cartoon), wasn’t such a simpleton after all. Yes, his wife told him he was being deceived and bitched at him constantly. Harris believed Smith, however, and later was one of three men who were permitted to see the plates, hear God’s voice declaring they were true and seeing the angel, the sword of Laban, and the interpreters (seer stones). Harris also NEVER recanted his story, and though he later left the church over a personal grievance, he stayed true to his story and told it each time as though it were the first. One wonders, if I were dependent on a man and his money, and his wife told him I was a crook, would I then admit I was a crook and attempt to get him to go along with my story? Dum, dum, dum. Each of those three witnesses, incidentally, were well respected and known for their integrity and honesty. Eight more men, also of honest reputation, saw the plates by themselves, with no angel, no voice. And none of those eight EVER recanted their testimonies. Those were details completely left out of the cartoon.

SD7: ...yeah, I'm absolutely angry about having decades of my life stolen from me by a cult. I should be, anyone who was in that situation should be. There are days when the anger is too much to handle and it messes things up at home with the Mrs. But I'm not so much angry at the people as the fact that a handful of people are responsible for this much evil and no one can touch them. People going along with that is just too much to bear.

Your story is much like others I’ve heard on this board, and anyone who’s been flimflammed out of great deals of money or years of their lives are bound to feel searing anger and even a need for revenge. But doing that is like hitting the tar baby. You can’t hurt them; in fact, with every swing there are those you left behind who think you strike for your own damnation. To quote the crazy Captain Ahab in Moby Dick: “Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering [beast]; to the last I grapple with thee; from hell’s heart I stab at thee; for hate’s sake I spit my last breath at thee!”

Melville knew a great deal about resentment and loathing. (Also from Moby Dick: “All that most maddens and torments; all that stirs up the lees of things; all truth with malice in it; all that cracks the sinews and cakes the brain; all the subtle demonisms of life and thought; all evil....”

Perhaps they should be called “Moby Halls” instead of Kingdom Halls.

73

Bitter apostates

by Laika in

witnesses often go on about apostates being spiteful and bitter.

when you get cut off, shunned, or threatened with shunning just for the audacity of thinking differently, it's not surprising that getting angry at the witnesses is the reaction - it's like a self fulfilling prophecy.. but also, i recently posted an email from a 'friend' on this board who told me that everyone he'd spoken to about me said i had changed, become like another person.

it didn't occur to him that the day before i told my parents i'd quit the religion just 3 weeks ago, i met him for lunch, we had a good time and he didn't know anything was up.

Cold Steel

Laika: Also, doesn’t it bother you that the Mormon website whitewashes Joseph’s history by making out he was a faithful and devoted husband of only one wife?

...you didn't really answer my question...whether or not it bothers you that the Mormon website's biography implies he only had one.

Hi, Laika. Didn’t mean to avoid the question. Actually, I must have missed that implication. If an LDS author or website would make such, I would be critical, but I don’t think it would bother me. We certainly don’t deny the doctrine, and it was a tough one to obey, but we have so many writers and variances of interests that it’s tough to ensure total consistency. If you can cut and paste the part you’re talking about, it will be easier for me to address the point.

Oculos Aperire: Everyone of those Mormons in that vid look like they all have beautiful homes and tons of money... How do they all get so rich??

I wish I knew, OA. I really wish I knew.

Prologos: ...doctrines just as nuts as WT BtS.

I don’t doubt you see it that way. Every doctrine in every religion seems nuts to others.

Return of Parakeet: It’s not helpful or correct to paint all ex-dub atheists with the same brush, as much as you would like to squirrel them all into your convenient little categories. People are just a bit more complicated than that.

Of course they are, but most of our disagreements on this forum stem from the fact that you don’t carefully read what I’m saying. I said: “Some who fall away from the JWs become atheists....”

An excellent book to read about the history of the LDS and the horrifying FLDS sects it spawned is “Under the Banner of Heaven” by Jon Krakauer....

Yeah...take a look at Doing Violence to Journalistic Integrity, a review of Krakauer’s book. A much better book is Prophet’s Prey, by Sam Brower, with a preface by Jon Krakauer. It's the result of seven years of research and is a much better book.

DeWandelaar: Also... like all cults: let them prove they are the persons assigned by God...unlike Jesus and Moses they have no miracles to back them up....

We don’t? Tell me, have you ever even cracked a book (other than an anti-Mormon book) that was written about the LDS church? We don’t have any miracles except for the healing of the sick, the appearance of angels, the casting out of devils, the raising of the dead, deliverance from our enemies, prophecies, speaking in tongues (not the gibberish of today’s Pentecostal sects), visions and, well, other than those, I’m stumped. As for cults, Pliny the elder referred to Christianity as “that wretched cult,” so even there we’re not too different.

Of course, neither Jews nor Christians can “prove” their miracles, though they were witnessed by the people of the times of Moses and Jesus. In like manner, we LDS can’t prove our miracles, either. But we have plenty of witnesses who testified of them, and still testify of them. And there’s not a single miracle in the ancient church that hasn’t also been done in this dispensation in the modern church.

MrFreeze: I know of a couple Mormons that were excommunicated and their Mormon family stopped speaking to them.
Problemaddict: ...while the shunning program Mormons engage in is not as rigid, or as communal, it does exist.

The difference is, the church doesn’t practice shunning, neither does it endorse or recommend it. Ritualistic shunning is wrong, whoever does it, and it goes counter to the gospel of Christ. It’s hard to show love to someone you’re emotionally stoning, isn’t it? Jesus didn’t practice it, and the ancient church didn’t practice it. It actually was popular in the various Baptist sects of the 1800s through probably the early 1960s. They’ve pretty much abandoned it now and even joke about it. The Jehovah's Witnesses are the only folks I know who still do it as official doctrine.

LisaRose: Your attempts to say that Mormons are different and better than the JWs is hilarious. Same meat, different gravy.

I never said we were “better,” but now that you mention it, our meat is organic and freshly ground, and the gravy is freshly made, not canned.

Nugget: ... examine your own belief system with an open mind before trying to win converts here.

Win converts? Moi? Look, I didn’t start this topic. For most of my time on this crazy board, I kept my religion secret. Then people started comparing it to the Jehovah's Witnesses, and I came out of the proverbial closet. And, btw, what makes you think I haven’t examined my own belief system? I became a convert to the church in 1971 when I was 18 years old, and I’ve never regretted it. Now I have people who haven’t read squat about “Mormonism” (except for some incendiary websites on the Internet). So you better watch it, or else I’ll take my converts and make my own forum!

I would never think of becoming a Mormon and certainly have no intention of being controlled by another group of men on a power trip they validate with their own brand of made up scripture.

Ah, well, our loss. I reckon it’s a matter of whose “made up” scriptures are better than other made up scriptures.

Problemaddict: Where you guys I think jump them in wackiness, is the idea that you can become a divine being (God), over your own universe at the higher echelons of heaven. As God is man can become.....I believe is the GBHS phrase of note.

This is actually one of the toughest issues people have with the LDS church, but it shouldn’t be in my view. The Eastern Orthodox have believed in a large part of the doctrine, which is called theosis or deification. In essence, it states that we, as the children of God, who are made in his image, after his likeness, male and female, can become like him. John teaches that because of the atonement of Christ, we all can be made perfect, inheriting all that the Father has. Jesus sits on the right hand of the Father, and those who gain eternal life, as co-inheritors, sit down with him.

But then what? We just sit around and glow with the whiteness of the sun? Forever? And what of those resurrected to lower glories? Paul stated there are varying degrees of glory in the resurrection. He states that there are many different types of flesh on Earth, and that there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies. There is one glory of the sun, another of the moon and another of stars, and each one varies in glory. Then he states: “...so also is the resurrection of the dead.”

I don’t have room or time to go further, but one of the main doctrinal differences we have with the Jehovah's Witnesses is that we believe that the earth will become a glorious sphere like the sun, not just a garden. The garden will happen during the Millennium, but after that, Earth will undergo its own “resurrection” to a much higher glory. And it will be the home of those who gain eternal life. Whether people will get their own planet or universe is a speculative matter and no one knows what types of dominions we will oversee and what, exactly, we’ll do. But we will have an eternal progression in which that we will become one with God.

For more, check out The Doctrine of Theosis, or Becoming a God.

12

Scriptural list of gods anger?

by iCeltic in

can anyone point me in the right direction, a good descriptive list of gods anger, genocide, vengeance and general things that we would view as bad and the scriptures next to it to show where these things are in the bible?.

Cold Steel

Madgiant, many of the examples you display are not God killing people, but people killing people. David, for example, killed the messenger (an Amalekite), not for delivering a message, but for killing King Saul. We don't know all the facts, but what we do know is that 1) God didn't have anything to do with it; 2) the Amalekite slew Saul, who was anointed King over Israel by a prophet of God; his life was thus sacrosanct; and 3) he sought to gain favor by bringing David the crown and bracelet. In fact, he slew Saul because, he said, “I was sure that he could not live after that he was fallen: and I took the crown that was upon his head, and the bracelet that was on his arm, and have brought them hither unto my lord. ” He may have been telling the truth, but you don’t kill a king who has been anointed of God, and you certainly don’t kill a king to curry the favor of his successor. In Robert Graves’ I Claudius, the chief praetorian, Macro, smothers Tiberius as a favor to Caligula and presents him with the imperial ring. And Caligula is grateful; however, as soon as he had consolidated his power, he had Macro killed, because he realized that anyone who would kill one emperor would certainly kill another, if the occasion warranted it. And it just so happened that Macro’s successor was the one who organized the plot to kill Caligula, and was on of the first to plunge his sword into the reprobate.

David’s murder of Uriah wasn’t mentioned in the list, most probably because it was a sin David was condemned for by the Lord. In like manner, many of the other things you list are not of God (such as the killings of the circumcised, the killings committed by Samson, and even the killing of Goliath) and the ones that were done by God were done for good and just reasons.

So for those who buy the Which, for example, do you think was an undeserved killing, or killings, by God? And in which was God completely out of line? Are there any justifiable reasons the Lord can take life or is the taking of all life by Deity a travesty? At what point did God lose the right to judge his creations. If he gave us life and taught us the ways of righteousness, does he not retain the power and right to judge us according to the laws he has given us?

These lists are essentially meaningless.

..........

Elijah calls down fire on his sacrifice in front
of the 600 heathen priests he later caused
to be slain.

12

Scriptural list of gods anger?

by iCeltic in

can anyone point me in the right direction, a good descriptive list of gods anger, genocide, vengeance and general things that we would view as bad and the scriptures next to it to show where these things are in the bible?.

Cold Steel

Don't confuse the Jehovah’s Witnesses with the Old and New Testaments.

God did not indiscriminately murder any people, nor did he commit genocide or other atrocities. In the case of Moses, the people of Canaan were warned not to interfere with the Israelites as they moved through their lands. The Canaanites disregarded those warnings and attempted to undermine their religion and to destroy them as a people. Keep in mind, too, that these weren’t just “other” civilizations. They were degenerate, despicable cults that sacrificed their own children to heathen gods and engaged in profligate sexual practices that were interwoven with their religion. In the case of the prophet Balaam, who fell and was later put to death by Moses, he knew that if the daughters of the heathen seduced the young princes of Israel, that the Israelites would lose the protection of Yahweh.

There has never been a culture or people who were destroyed by the Lord who weren’t first warned by prophets. In the cases of repentance, many were spared. But when they became so wicked that succeeding generations had zero chance of attaining righteousness, they were usually destroyed. But keep in mind that God did not annihilate such people. As one theologian put it, they were moved en mass to a penalty box. They did not go to a burning hell, but a “prison” (see 1 Peter 3:18-20), with the wicked who came before, to await the visitation of Jesus.

The Jehovah's Witnesses believe the myth of Armageddon, where one day the skies will get dark and then all hell will break loose. While they watch, millions will be massacred by Yahweh (everyone but them). While it’s true that many of the most wicked will perish with the Second Coming of Christ—again, they’ve been warned—many billions of people will be spared. The first part of the Millennium, in fact, will be spent with a great deal of missionary work being done. And if a person doesn’t believe in God, but is a good, decent, honorable person, they will be spared. Even one-sixth of the vast army of the Beast will be spared, according to scripture. (Ezekiel 39:2) And, by the way, Armageddon will be fought in the Middle East, and the Jehovah's Witnesses will have nothing to do with it.

8

WOW!! I thought JW's were uninformed about world events, but nooo.

by jam in

breaking amish tv show.

two young amish adults was.

ask, who was martin l. king.

Cold Steel

Nope. Not a JW phenomenon at all. Jesse Waters, who works for Bill O'Reilly (Fox News), routinely interviews people in New York, Los Angeles, Oahu, and other major cities, and most people in these places are dumber than bricks. They don't know who the vice president is, they don't know about the IRS scandal, Benghazi...you name it. And they let these idiots vote.

I was speaking with a chaplain from Georgetown University earlier this week, and he said when he asks people on campus about why they voted for Obama, a hundred percent of them replied it was because of what they were getting from government. Not one, he said, mentioned ideology. Back in the 60s and early 70s, Americans who left the Communist Party, USA, said they were told to deny any affiliation with the party and to infiltrate schools, unions, civics organizations and other political parties. Their goals were to centralize power, divide the population, debauch the currency, redistribute the wealth and disarm the people. People back then knew how to recognize people who did these things; however, education has eliminated this knowledge. In short, our immune system was compromised. Now when we see people doing these things, we don't register anything. We've got a president who was born from parents who were communists, nurtured by communists, mentored by communists and backed by communists (as was Al Gore). Yet no one but radical right wing extremists are stupid enough to believe things might not be as we're told.

So, no. It's not a JW thing at all.

73

Bitter apostates

by Laika in

witnesses often go on about apostates being spiteful and bitter.

when you get cut off, shunned, or threatened with shunning just for the audacity of thinking differently, it's not surprising that getting angry at the witnesses is the reaction - it's like a self fulfilling prophecy.. but also, i recently posted an email from a 'friend' on this board who told me that everyone he'd spoken to about me said i had changed, become like another person.

it didn't occur to him that the day before i told my parents i'd quit the religion just 3 weeks ago, i met him for lunch, we had a good time and he didn't know anything was up.

Cold Steel

I'm reading the book, Farewell to Jehovah's Witnesses, by John Rippon. I'm convinced that some of the things that keep the Witnesses in tend to turn, over time, into the things that drive them away. The ritualistic shunning of family members and friends, the constant bombardment of the same things over and over, the relentless expectation of Armageddon and the forced separation from the world; these all create a steady pressure that, over time, starts creating cracks in their own foundation. To some degree this is offset by the granting of recognition and power; however, there is a great deal of mind control at work that I don't see in any other Christian religion.

Some who fall away from the JWs become atheists and reject all religion, having been burned. That also is part of the mind control process, though they don't realize it, because the scriptures they once knew (and misinterpreted) become hateful to them. I also think the translation of the scritpures they use is so pedestrian and esoteric that it goes out with the bathwater.

73

Bitter apostates

by Laika in

witnesses often go on about apostates being spiteful and bitter.

when you get cut off, shunned, or threatened with shunning just for the audacity of thinking differently, it's not surprising that getting angry at the witnesses is the reaction - it's like a self fulfilling prophecy.. but also, i recently posted an email from a 'friend' on this board who told me that everyone he'd spoken to about me said i had changed, become like another person.

it didn't occur to him that the day before i told my parents i'd quit the religion just 3 weeks ago, i met him for lunch, we had a good time and he didn't know anything was up.

Cold Steel

As a Mormon, myself, I see the article in a somewhat different light. And though there are similarities in the hierarchal structures of the LDS church and the Jehovah’s Witnesses, there are some incredibly significant differences. Although both churches claim inspired leadership, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is based on a God-given theology, not manmade. The Jehovah’s Witnesses shy away from the words “prophets” and “apostles,” but we don’t. Charles T. Russell and Joseph Rutherford were preachers who “took the honor unto themselves” and presumed authority from God they did not receive. Thus their warnings are of little consequence.

The LDS church, on the other hand, is based on divine authority that was conveyed by heavenly messengers to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in compliance to the law of witnesses—to wit, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. Later, Sidney Rigdon and Joseph Smith shared a vision of the degrees of glory that await mankind after the resurrection, again establishing the truth through two witnesses.

If the Jehovah’s Witnesses are correct and that an “invisible” Jesus Christ “called” Charles Taze Russell and Joseph Rutherford to be his earthly representatives, then the words of the Governing Body, their successors, should be heeded as from God, himself. But if Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery received the holy priesthood, as they testified, then their warnings should be heeded as from God.

Wherefore, I the Lord, knowing the calamity which should come upon the inhabitants of the earth, called upon my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and spake unto him from heaven, and gave him commandments, and also gave commandments to others, that they should proclaim these things unto the world; and all this that it might be fulfilled, which was written by the prophets: The weak things of the world shall come forth and break down the mighty and strong ones, that man should not counsel his fellow man, neither trust in the arm of flesh—but that every man might speak in the name of God the Lord, even the Savior of the world; that faith also might increase in the earth; that mine everlasting covenant might be established. (D&C 1)

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that when one is baptized, one becomes a member of the organization and an ordained minister of the gospel. But if so, why can they not baptize their own children or the converts they glean? Why must higher ups have this honor?

The Lord’s purpose is that every man might receive the holy priesthood by way of calling and ordination. This is what he wanted for the Israelites under Moses, but they rejected him, and so Moses became as God to them. But under the fulness of the gospel, it is his will that “every man might speak in the name of God, the Lord, even the Savior of the world.”

Of course I realize the possibility that both religions may be false, in which case apostasy from both would be freedom to those who leave; however, if one views all of Christianity, which sect among the many has apostles as the ancient church had? Which is guided by revelation and prophecy as was the ancient church? And which has witnesses who can attest to the coming of angels and the restoration of God’s authority to the earth? Thus, during the heady days of Kirtland, when many saw angels and visions, and prophesied, revelling in the Spirit of God, the prophet warned them that following that would be a purge. Thus the dark days of apostasy came and many fell away.

LDS theologian Noel B. Williams writes: “The more we learn about the first decades after the passing of Christ, the more we can see internal rebellion against God’s covenants and against his authorized servants—much like the rebellions against Moses in the wilderness, or against Joseph Smith in Kirtland in 1836. The rebels were members of Christ’s church, sometimes leaders, who sought for earthly power, glory, and even justification for their own sins.”

So the bottom line is that apostasy from God’s truth is destructive to both the apostates and the church, itself. The only difference between a convert and an apostate is simply a point of view.

30

When Is Armageddon? Really?

by Cold Steel in

yeah, i know that it's been just around the corner for as long as there have been corners, but my question adds just a little different twist, and that twist is: is there anything (according to the gb) that needs to take place before armageddon?

or can it happen any moment?

and what will be the first signs of armageddon?

Cold Steel

Yeah, I know that it's been just around the corner for as long as there have been corners, but my question adds just a little different twist, and that twist is: Is there anything (according to the GB) that needs to take place before Armageddon? Or can it happen any moment? And what will be the first signs of Armageddon?

Many Christian religions believe Jesus will return and they look forward to the event. Finally, peace, justice and mercy would reign, and the wicked will be vanquished. But the Society believes Armageddon will come and kill everyone but Jehovah's Witnesses!

They keep talking about it coming shortly, but the GB keeps spending money on new buildings and making temporal plans that seem to belie those expectations. So from those who know the topic, how will JWs know when the big day arrives? Will the skies suddenly turn black and fire start falling from heaven? Will there be a trumpet sounding? And will persecution against the JWs by the nations of the Earth come before it all?

32

The UNFORGIVABLE Sin: What Is It?

by Cold Steel in

jesus said: .

verily i say unto you, all sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: but he that shall blaspheme against the holy ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

(mark 3:28-29).

Cold Steel

Thanks for your replies.

Although I'm not a JW, I do occasionally read the Watchtower when someone gives me one. I get it on a Saturday and read it that evening or the next day. It astounded me to learn that members spend hours studying it! No offense to anyone, but it's about as deep as a spring shower puddle and about as clear. It would drive me nuts getting together every week and going over it as though it were a letter from heaven.

The unforgivable sin is an issue I'd never heard them speak about. Based on what I've heard, if you fall away from the faith and repent, you haven't committed it. If you've fallen away and don't return, then you have most likely committed it. Most other faiths view the unforgivable sin as an affront to what God has revealed via the Holy Spirit. Thus if a person were to deny Christ once he or she had received a sure knowledge of him, that would be blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

To former members who have turned to atheism, there is no sin, period. So no surprise that they view it all as foolishness.

5

Don't know Jehovah

by Crazyguy in

where did the gb come up with the idea that one has to know jehovah in order to be saved and survive armageddon?

what scriptures???

the new testament is all about the spreading the 'good news of christ', so how did they come up with this crap?.

Cold Steel

The Jehovah's Witnesses also aren't aware that Jehovah of the Old Testament is Jesus of the New, though the scriptures are full of clues. When man fell, man immediately needed an intercessor between him and the Father (whose name is El, or Elyon). That intercessor was Jehovah, the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, and the God of Israel. The Old and New Testaments combine to proclaim him the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End, the Shepherd and Savior of Israel, and the great Judge of nations and mankind.

Every time they speak about Jehovah and his Son Jesus Christ, I cringe. If man needed a mediator from the beginning, then who was the mediator between the Father and Moses? Or between the Father and Abraham? Jesus couldn't have been the mediator unless he was Jehovah. After the Millennium, after the final battle of Gog and Magog, when Satan and his angels are banished, mankind has been judged and resurrected to their respective glories, and Earth redeemed and glorified; after this, Jehovah will offer up his stewardship to the Father and the Atonement will be complete.

And the WTBTS isn't the only religious group to use the name Jehovah in their worship. Many ex-JWs who go to other faiths are somewhat dumbfounded to discover the name in hymns, in recitations, sermons and devotional literature. Of course, because they aren't allowed to go to other churches, associate with members of other churches and because they're kept on a short leash, they tend to live in their own world.

The greatest problem with the Governing Board is that by their own admission, the WTBTS is not a church and they are not apostles, though they claim to draw on the same source in the same way. The board also has no certificate of authority by the Almighty, so to speak. How do they know Jesus inspected the world's religions in 1919? How do they know that God, who does not fail to notice the falling of a single sparrow, needed to inspect the world's religions? Further, how do they know God chose them? Did Joseph Rutherford kneel down and pray, "Oh, Jehovah, if we're not your legal representatives, tell me "no" now. But if I am your faithful and wise servant, Lord, just don't say anything!" [Tick-tock, tick-tock, tick-tock] "Thank you, Lord! I thought so!"

So their claims to apostolic authority are shaky at best. Authority in the ministry is a major issue, not a peripheral one. So when a Jehovah's Witness speaks of "manmade churches," it's the height of irony.